Posts by Doug Mason

31

The Church Father's "70 years"

by Doug Mason in

in their letter to lobsto regarding the neo-babylonian chronology, the wts wrote the following regarding the early church fathers:.

less than 200 years after josephus, several early church writers clearly accepted that the length of the desolation or exile was 70 years, and no one gives any other length for this event.

for instance, tatian the assyrian (110 to 172 c.e.

Doug Mason

IRENAEUS

“He who, when, during the captivity of the people under Nebuchadnezzar, the Scriptures had been corrupted, and when, after seventy years, the Jews had returned to their own land, then, in the times of Artaxerxes king of the Persians, inspired Esdras the priest, of the tribe of Levi, to recast all the words of the former prophets, and to re-establish with the people the Mosaic legislation. (Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book III, chapter 21, 2)

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How long after seventy years did they return? Is this telling us what marked the end of the Seventy Years? In the immediate context of this passage, Irenaeus writes a most fanciful story regarding the translation of their Scriptures into Greek.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103321.htm

31

The Church Father's "70 years"

by Doug Mason in

in their letter to lobsto regarding the neo-babylonian chronology, the wts wrote the following regarding the early church fathers:.

less than 200 years after josephus, several early church writers clearly accepted that the length of the desolation or exile was 70 years, and no one gives any other length for this event.

for instance, tatian the assyrian (110 to 172 c.e.

Doug Mason

CLEMENT

“And in the twelfth year of the reign of Zedekiah, forty years before the supremacy of the Persians, Nebuchodonosor made war against the Phoenicians and the Jews, as Berosus asserts in his Chaldaean Histories. And Joabas, writing about the Assyrians, acknowledges that he had received the history from Berosus, and testifies to his accuracy. Nebuchodonosor, therefore, having put out the eyes of Zedekiah, took him away to Babylon, and transported the whole people (the captivity lasted seventy years), with the exception of a few who fled to Egypt. (Clement, The Stromata, Book I, chapter 21)

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This is saying there was a period of forty years from the 12th year of Zedekiah to the end of Babylon’s supremacy. The captivity lasted 70 years, so it started some 30 years before Jerusalem was destroyed. As a side note: the WTS does not start its “70 years” until the “few had crossed the border and entered Egypt”. I believe I can show that at least 2 years, and up to 4 years, elapsed between the destruction of Jerusalem and when the Jews entered Egypt. Jerusalem fell in the 5th month (August) but the WTS starts its “70 years” in the 7th month (October)

31

The Church Father's "70 years"

by Doug Mason in

in their letter to lobsto regarding the neo-babylonian chronology, the wts wrote the following regarding the early church fathers:.

less than 200 years after josephus, several early church writers clearly accepted that the length of the desolation or exile was 70 years, and no one gives any other length for this event.

for instance, tatian the assyrian (110 to 172 c.e.

Doug Mason

TATIAN

“Berosus, a Babylonian, a priest of their god Belus, born in the time of Alexander, composed for Antiochus, the third after him, the history of the Chaldeans in three books; and, narrating the acts of the kings, he mentions one of them, Nabuchodonosor by name, who made war against the Phœnicians and the Jews,—events which we know were announced by our prophets, and which happened much later than the age of Moses, seventy years before the Persian empire. (Tatian Address to the Greeks ch. 36)

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Tatian is saying that Berossus wrote that the Jews’ prophets (presumably he meant Jeremiah) had announced, 70 years before the Persians (Cyrus) defeated Babylon, that Nebuchadnezzar would make war against the Phœnicians and the Jews.

31

The Church Father's "70 years"

by Doug Mason in

in their letter to lobsto regarding the neo-babylonian chronology, the wts wrote the following regarding the early church fathers:.

less than 200 years after josephus, several early church writers clearly accepted that the length of the desolation or exile was 70 years, and no one gives any other length for this event.

for instance, tatian the assyrian (110 to 172 c.e.

Doug Mason

In their letter to Lobsto regarding the neo-Babylonian chronology, the WTS wrote the following regarding the early Church Fathers:

Less than 200 years after Josephus, several early church writers clearly accepted that the length of the desolation or exile was 70 years, and no one gives any other length for this event.

For instance, Tatian the Assyrian (110 to 172 C.E.) in his Address of Hatian to the Greeks, chapter 36;

Clement of Alexandria (153 to 193 C.E.) in his work The Stromata, Book I, chapter 21; and

Irenaeus (120 to 202 C.E.) in Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book III, chapter 21, 2; Book IV, chapter 34, 4, all wrote that the Jews were exiled in Babylon for 70 years.

So did the ancient chronologer Julius Africanus (200 to 232 C.E.) in the Extant Fragments of the Five Books of the Chronography of Julius Africanus, chapter 13, 2.

Thus, while these ancient writers may not have been fully accurate in all the particulars, they do all agree on one point, namely, that the Jews were in captivity for 70 years, and some of these indicate that Jerusalem was desolate for the entire period.

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The following shows what each of the Church Fathers wrote at the references that the WTS provided.

Doug

8

Researching the "The Origin of Life" brochure

by Doug Mason in

i am preparing a critique that looks at the 51 instances the wts's brochure "the origin of life" uses scientists.. without preempting what i am looking for, i will appreciate your thoughts on the following endnotes: 7, 12, 17, 21, 23.. i need you to read what the brochure's author wrote and then compare that with the source.. thanks,.

doug.

Doug Mason

LeeT,

As you point out, there is no Reference 7a in the body of the brochure.

It is my assumption 7a is a Footnote/endnote to Reference 7. The pattern is similar with the others that have the letter "a", etc. - 1, 2, 25, 39, 51. A most unusual process. Most unusual.

Doug

8

Researching the "The Origin of Life" brochure

by Doug Mason in

i am preparing a critique that looks at the 51 instances the wts's brochure "the origin of life" uses scientists.. without preempting what i am looking for, i will appreciate your thoughts on the following endnotes: 7, 12, 17, 21, 23.. i need you to read what the brochure's author wrote and then compare that with the source.. thanks,.

doug.

Doug Mason

Thank you LeeT for taking the time and making the effort.

Again I have saved your contribution to my computer where I can study it better.

I appreciate your help,,

Doug

50

Did Jesus die on a stake or pole?

by sweetyj in

we already know how jws will respond ( on a pole).

but i found an article that talks about jws views on how jesus died.

i didn't know that there was a time when jws accepted the cross unlike now.

Doug Mason

Sea Breeze,

"The wages of sin is death".

My understanding is that according to the Biblical narrative, Cain was the first sinner, and his action certainly resulted in death.

Adam and Eve were simply prevented from accessing the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Bad. In other words, they were refused access to the knowledge of everything, which would have made them the same as the gods.

Doug

50

Did Jesus die on a stake or pole?

by sweetyj in

we already know how jws will respond ( on a pole).

but i found an article that talks about jws views on how jesus died.

i didn't know that there was a time when jws accepted the cross unlike now.

Doug Mason

I had not looked into this "stake versus cross" debate for some years (decades).

At the time, my understanding was that the WTS said the merits of Jesus' death were applied solely to the 144,000. They appeared to confirm this wit their practice at their annual "Memorial". Is this still the case?

Secondly, I cannot comprehend their "Ransom" reasoning. If Jesus's death paid a price, to whom does the WTS say it was paid? Who was holding them captive? After having the Ransom paid, can it still be forfeited and the payment returned?

If you would like to see the pictures from Justus Lipsius' book that the NWT used to cite in its NWT:

https://jwstudies.com/Pictures_from_Lipsius_de_Cruce_Liber_Primus.pdf

I guarantee that these are genuine, as I had them copied in the 1970s from an original book held at the Victorian State Library in Melbourne, Australia.

Doug

50

Did Jesus die on a stake or pole?

by sweetyj in

we already know how jws will respond ( on a pole).

but i found an article that talks about jws views on how jesus died.

i didn't know that there was a time when jws accepted the cross unlike now.

Doug Mason

Leo's answer reminded me of my regular complaint that Jesus was not "impaled". Justsus Lipsius illustrates impalement, with the pole entering the anus and exiting the mouth.

Have they dropped the term "impale"? I guess theirs is more like pole dancing than impalement.

Doug

50

Did Jesus die on a stake or pole?

by sweetyj in

we already know how jws will respond ( on a pole).

but i found an article that talks about jws views on how jesus died.

i didn't know that there was a time when jws accepted the cross unlike now.

Doug Mason

They don't worship a cross?

But do they worship a pole?

Surely it was the death that mattered, not the implement.

The early NWT NT had pictures from Justus Lipsius showing a stake being used. I have a 1950 edition and it's on page 770.

They did not tell its readers that the book by Justus Lipsius has pictures of several methods (Andrews Cross, upside down, etc., etc.) and that Lipsius "preferred" the conventional cross.

Doug